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Gentlecloud
Singapore
15 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Jun 2005 : 08:46:20
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Hi everyone, I am a newbie to this forum and maybe even to the literary world with one recently completed novel under the belt. It has been a very rewarding experience in terms of self-achievement and sheer pleasure when I receive wonderful comments. But then, one cannot live on water and fresh air alone so I would like to ask more bread and butter issues with regards to writing as a career.
I have tons of questions which I guess all new writers have. Where should I go to get them answered? Is there a writer's hitchhiker book that I could plough to get pearls of wisdom and bring some sanity to the wild ideas that I have to push my book out. Are there dos and don'ts that I should observe.
And last but not least, are there online avenues for publishing that are commercially viable.
Desperately seeking......for answers and writers in similar frame of mind : ) |
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Nicholas Liu
Singapore
59 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2005 : 13:16:33
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| When you say 'online avenues for publishing', do you mean venues which publish online, or which publish in print and accept submissions online? |
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Gentlecloud
Singapore
15 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2005 : 16:29:35
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Online publishing such as :
1) posting the softcopy on a story portal which allows pay per read
2) e-books (though that is not strictly online)
3) putting a site up to publicise the book and allow taking of orders. Much like those bookstore portals but those are difficult to break into unless you go the distributor route for self-publishing
4) print on demand
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alf
Singapore
92 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2005 : 22:57:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Gentlecloud
Online publishing such as :
1) posting the softcopy on a story portal which allows pay per read
2) e-books (though that is not strictly online)
3) putting a site up to publicise the book and allow taking of orders. Much like those bookstore portals but those are difficult to break into unless you go the distributor route for self-publishing
4) print on demand
Are you prepared to pay for these services in some fashion? I know of people who can do this on a commercial basis.
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Edited by - alf on 06 Jun 2005 22:58:28 |
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Gentlecloud
Singapore
15 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2005 : 23:02:26
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Hmm, this is quite a quiet forum so much so that it is quite easy to finish all the threads and catch up on the latest thoughts, dreams, advice from the few that post here.
I sense the despair of local writers in seeing their creations of love go unnoticed and unfulfilled. There is a Mr. Lee28 who write so beautifully in his posts but had to continue his full-time job to support his family. I read with a bit of trepidation about the long road to publishing our creations and begin to wonder. Perhaps the silent multitude is answering my question after all.....with a resounding NO.
I am probably at the stage where Mr. Lee28 was a few years ago, all keyed up and armed with my first creation and a bagful of ideas on how to create my first million. I guess I am going through what every aspiring writer has gone through. Let me just list them down so as to compare notes.
First, I approached established bookstores regarding the process of carrying a book. The answer is that they only deal with distributors and sent me a list of distributors to explore further.
From discussions with distributors some of whom are really quite nice and helpful, I learnt the kind of margins I have to work with. Distributors take 60% to 65% of the list price of the book and works on a consignment basis i.e. I will get paid only when the book is actually sold to an end-customer. That leaves 35% to 40% to me to cover my printing costs and any money left is profit.
Printers I approached in Singapore quoted approximately $3 to print my book and need at least one thousand copies with some needing two thousand copies. I am seeking quotes now from Johore through a friend of mine.
All the above is considered the self-publishing route which is fraught with heartaches and pitfalls. Surfing the web on this route enlightens me on the danger of vanity publishing which is basically bulldozing your way through to getting your work in print without heeding the quality of your works and hence paying an arm and a leg as a result. There are entrepreneurs that have recognised and tapped on the needs of such writers and offered something in between. They call it print on-demand. Names such as Trafford, SwanstoneWynot and The AuthorHouse are a few names that offer this. Find out more on what they have to offer and pehaps, like me, you may want to explore setting up somthing similar in Asia. Our rates would work out much cheaper than what they offer. Ahh, if only we have time, right?
Now what about publishers. There are myriads of publishers ranging from those that take copyright of your story, bears all the risk and gives you 5-10% as royalties to those that straddle between a distributor and a publisher. I have just mailed two copies of my book to two publishers but am not holding my breath that I will get an offer. I have one copy sitting beside me now ready to be mailed to a producer. Yes, I have dreams all right but let me see how long my persistence will last : )
Through the constant search, one kind distributor finally led me to National Arts Council (NAC) to explore grants for creative writing. But as luck would have it, I have just missed the deadline of May 15 and the next is September 15. However, I was rewarded with a more friendly list of publishers to approach, being included in their mailing list for latest happenings and of course, through Alvin, found my way to this forum.
What have I learnt so far? Firstly, it is best to find a publisher than to self-publish. Every writer who loves to write would know that this frees them from the gruelling task of marketing their own works which would detract them from writing. But there is very little money in it through this route unless your work sells well say a million copies, in which case, you can earn possibly half a million assuming your royalties is fifty cents per book. With that kind of magnitude, we need global reach........
Besides creative writing, I thought I would turn to creative marketing and apply my routes-to-market knowledge that is tossed around so much at work. Publishers is a traditional route but what about non-traditional routes eg online reading portal, e-books, SMSing your story chapter by chapter if your audience is a young crowd, printing in instalments through magazines etc. I have not explored all these in sufficient detail yet. If any one has explored and can share their experiences, I would be most grateful.
In a thread started by M.Chu titled "Ever dreamt of writing your first novel". There was an extract in there that gives very practical advice.
"There is no best-selling formula: There is a common denominator of best-sellers. It is a well-constructed story. Every line must have a hook planted to lead the reader on to the next, every chapter must end with a surprise, a predicament, a big hook. The end must be a true end, all the book must be epitomized in the last paragraph. It must be what the book has been aiming towards, the target it has been planned to hit."
I believe my story has that but needs some polishing....hmmm, maybe a lot of polishing. I have circulated some copies to my friends to test-read and so far, feedback has been kind. My husband who is into Dan Brown and Tom Clancy, ploughed through my book and rated it very good for a first timer but only good when stacked up against his Dan Brown. At least he managed to read it and I am thankful.
So, that is my life story as a fledgling writer. Is there anything I should explore further, anything I should be wary of , please, please share.
BTW, AYK, if you are reading this, I find this that you posted quite profound:
There's a phrase in fight Club which I think goes like this:
"We are the middle children of history. We have no great war. No great depression. Our great war is with ourselves. Our great depression is our lives."
No, I am not depressed, just slowly opening my eyes.....
Alf, I have just read your question. Yes, I am willing to pay if it is reasonable. Thanks |
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alf
Singapore
92 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2005 : 16:43:17
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quote:
Alf, I have just read your question. Yes, I am willing to pay if it is reasonable. Thanks
Ok, how can they get in touch with you? They're locally based and have publishing experience as well as access to the latest PoD and other technologies. |
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Gentlecloud
Singapore
15 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2005 : 19:04:02
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| Thanks Alvin. I have emailed my contacts to you. Have you explored this route before. Any advice? |
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ayk
Singapore
8 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2005 : 09:29:52
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Thanks Gentlecloud. Was a very useful post for reference.
Am compiling my own short stories and re-editing them, probably half a year more and I should be coming back to read up on this post again - on what to do, haha.
Congrats on your novel published. Might as well do an advert here. What's the title of your book? Where can I find it? Would love to go check it out.
Have been spending a little time in libraries reading up on local book (hehe, and no, I've finished only a couple chapters of Hwee Hwee's Mammon Inc, and kinda flitted now to Claire Tham's rocker shorts).
Anyway and anyhow, don't most of us hold a full time job? - the woods are lovely dark and deep. but i have promises to keep, and miles to go before i sleep, and miles to go before i sleep.
Like Mr Frost said, we all have our promises to keep, to our family, but also to ourselves, and miles to go before we all sleep. So it doesn't matter whether Alice finds the rabbithole again in the end; it is knowing there is a rabbithole, that the dreaming lives.
And it is dreaming that makes the walk a little...hmmm...gentler.
So, till then, when Mr Sandman visits and I can make more sense of what's being written... |
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Gentlecloud
Singapore
15 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2005 : 21:11:09
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Hi there, AYK, congrats are way too premature. Hmmm, how did I give you that impression that I have published it? Sorry about that. I have not found a publisher yet which is why I posted my steps to see whether any writers with published works might advice on whether I did the right thing and anything else I should explore.
I did digitally print some copies to send to publishers and friends so perhaps that was what you thought were published works. LOL. My novel is a love-cum-action fiction called 'Through the Storm'. I enjoyed writing it very much and even now, I enjoy reading it so I am my own biggest fan. I am sure you have your share of pleasure writing your short stories too.
Hey, your quotation is beautifully applied here. Hahaha. But.... I am afraid of deep, dark woods. I circle their fringe cautiously, apprehensively, psyching myself to venture in but wishing desperately that there is at least a sliver of light. Oh where is the moon or the stars if not the warm friendly sun? 'Let there be light and there was light.' Who said that, do you know? '... the light was good and he separated the light from the darkness.'
Did you know that there is a new local writer's showcase cum bookstore at Earshot which is located at the old parliament house? You may want to browse there. I will check it out this weekend to chat with them on what opportunities there are for us poor blighters. Another friendly bookshop called Select Books is located at Tanglin Shoppng Centre.
I am toying with the idea of print-on-demand and putting my book up on a local writer's site. It costs approximately $8 to print my book but it is almost equivalent to going the distributor route. The plus point here is that we bear little risk as we don't have a ton of inventory staring in our faces. If enough local writers want to explore this route, we can collaborate and spread the cost of creating and maintaining the portal as well as find a service provider to handle the logistics of printing and mailing our books. What about it? SingaporeDreamers.com, Merlioncreations.com or WritersDream.com. Inspired? Keen to explore, anyone?
I would also like to know whether anyone has 'serialised' their stories i.e. contract to print their story chapter by chapter to local magazines. What are the pros and cons?
Hey Alvin, your friend has not contacted me yet. How do I get an ISBN code? How much does it cost to create a cover?
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Edited by - Gentlecloud on 10 Jun 2005 14:48:08 |
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alf
Singapore
92 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2005 : 13:13:06
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quote:
Hey Alvin, your friend has not contacted me yet. How do I get an ISBN code? How much does it cost to create a cover?
I haven't received your contact info yet. |
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Gentlecloud
Singapore
15 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2005 : 14:29:51
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Strange. I emailed you at least two days ago using the hotlink to your id in this forum. My email address is mygentlecloud@hotmail.com. I am sending you my phone number again this time to info@writer.per.sg directly.
Do you have any thoughts, experiences, advice, reservation etc on on-demand printing? I know you have published works so may not need to explore unconventional avenues. Nonetheless, your comments would be appreciated. Thanks |
Edited by - Gentlecloud on 10 Jun 2005 14:45:33 |
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alf
Singapore
92 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2005 : 19:23:05
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quote:
Do you have any thoughts, experiences, advice, reservation etc on on-demand printing? I know you have published works so may not need to explore unconventional avenues. Nonetheless, your comments would be appreciated. Thanks
I think Print-On-Demand (POD) has great potential, for the commercial as well as the creative publishing scenes. After all, the traditional fullscale publishing route is costly, time-consuming, risky and sometimes even fraught with dubious agendas.
But churning out entire books isn't the only way to go about it:
eg.
how about small runs for marketing , pre-print proof/review copies (I did this for City of Rain; it was well received and I got to make useful additions after getting feedback).
Or how about chapbooks, sample chapters of your novel (if your opening chapter, or your best showcase extract, doesn't grab readers the rest of the book is probably doomed...).
There might even be scope for customised editions - imagine a version of your novel written for a Singapore audience, another modified for the US market, yet another for China, another that's simplified for students, etc.
OR : several test editions (a snazzier styled vs a more conservatively written version of the same scene; different characters, different endings/beginnings, different covers etc).
Obviously loads of possibilities. But they all presuppose one thing - that the content and the writing are at least minimally publishable/marketable to at least one audience segment somewhere. No amount of technology will save a book that either can't sell itself, or is badly written (the two success factors can be mutually exclusive, but at least one of then has to exist!!).
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Gentlecloud
Singapore
15 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2005 : 21:54:08
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Many thanks, Alvin. Really appreciate your ideas. Your points are interesting. I have some questions:
Is it common practice to just print the first few chapters of the book instead of the whole book. Like you said, if the beginning doesn't grab the readers' attention, it is a foregone conclusion. Do distributors and publishers and reviewers accept such an extract vs the whole book? Are extracts the same as chapbooks in your second point. Gee, you have saved a lot of trees with this advice :=)
Small runs for marketing: do you do this yourself or do you leave the publisher or distributor to do that. Do we state the minimum things that these channels should do in an agreement? Could you give examples of marketing activities that would need these small runs?
Who would you suggest that we get reviews for the extracts? Is there a systematic way of doing it or do we just print and send to family and friends to comment? Notably, they would be biased and kinder and hence defeat the purpose.
Is there a critique or review board on this forum or anywhere else aside from publishers and distributors?
Thanks |
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Nicholas Liu
Singapore
59 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2005 : 23:57:44
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I'm not knowledgeable enough to answer your other questions, but a chapbook in the modern sense is essentially just a short, cheaply produced collection, usually with a very limited distribution. Some chapbooks are produced by small and university presses, or as part of a competition; others are self-produced (all you need for your basic chapbook is a photocopier and some better paper for the cover) and sold by the poet him/herself, through the internet, by hand at readings, etc. Some local publishers (mainly Landmark, I think?) don't seem to discriminate, often marketing as 'normal' books what would usually be chapbook-length collections.
As far as prose is concerned, chapbooks, as far as I'm aware, are usually made up of a few short stories or a one or two novellas/novellettes, rather than an extract from a longer work. |
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Gentlecloud
Singapore
15 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2005 : 08:36:12
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Thanks Nicholas.
So the term is called a chapbook. A home-made print of poems or a short story to be cheaply obtained and discarded after reading. I see. It probably has its place with students who have a voracious appetite for reading but not the means.
I have just reread Alvin's idea regarding chapbooks. The idea of expanding the chapbook to cover extracts is an interesting one. These would not even be digitally printed but photocopied like you said and used as 'marketing material'. So, imagine a book fair where someone hands you a chapbook which contains say three chapters of a book. You read it, wanted more and there at the back is a URL where you can go and place orders. This is one avenue to drive the readers to the Pod portal. I like it.
The Pod portal would also contain these same chapters for viewing before the reader orders the book. The current challenge I have in Pod is the collection of payment. One web service provider told me that it costs about $350 per year to maintain the payment module there that allows the payment engine (Visa I think) to manage my money and payout at periodic intervals for a fee. With that cost, it would only make sense if the Pod portal has critical mass i.e. selling a collection of books.
As an afterthought, if the Pod portal is just tested on the Singapore market, one could do away with Visa and just ask for funds transfer to a bank account. Yep, maybe I will do that for a start.
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Edited by - Gentlecloud on 11 Jun 2005 09:44:27 |
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alf
Singapore
92 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2005 : 23:20:34
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A large or competent enough publisher would already have an online transaction facility, in which case you don't have to foot the whole $350 a year yourself.
Chapbooks - some writers produce beautiful, printed (even handmade) chapbooks; they don't have to be cheap photocopied flappy things but can be attractive in their own right. The basic idea is the same - small (< full length book) collection of writing, small run. |
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Can Writers earn a decent living?
